Okay Smashers, you’re probably wondering why I’ve asked you here. Well, we need to talk. It’s about doubles.
I have a burning passion for doubles, I really do. But rather than get on a soapbox and try to force that passion on the community, I think it’s time to do the right thing. I think we need to tilt our collective chin in the upward direction, shoulders back, and admit that it’s time to call it quits.
I think we need to abolish doubles tournaments.
As briefly as possible, I’m going to outline why I think doubles tournaments are no longer a worthwhile investment of our time, and I hope to Azen above that someone can write a counterpoint article that proves me wrong.
My principle and underlying argument is that the 2v2 medium of Smash competition has been in place for over 10 years, and has failed to take hold. I think it is better for us conscientiously kill it now, rather than watch it get dragged into the “platinum age” by a dull inertia. I think it might be more humane.
It’s Messy
Having four characters share one screen, especially in SSBM, is a hot mess under prime conditions. But imagine that you’ve got two to three foxes on the stage, and the stage is Dreamland. Now picture the way the camera zooms out – the stocks are in the way of the players, one of the foxes is a ghost, and green team is blending in with the bushes. Tell me that’s not a mess.
These aesthetic challenges compound the difficulty of simply trying to keep track of four players moving at split-second speeds. It’s hard to commentate properly. All of this means that spectators have trouble following these matches, and therefore become disinterested. In a word, they are inaccessible. I hear over and over again that casual players and spectators aren’t interested in doubles. And if spectators are the key to our future, then perhaps that future doesn’t feature doubles.
It’s Not Healthy Competition
Think about how you want our competitive scene to be represented, and how you’d like people to view us. Seriously, stop reading and think about it for a second. Now pick a tournament at random and look at the doubles results; odds are that no more than one team in the top five is a practiced unit. Rather, we tend to see teams cobbled together at the last-minute, and the two best players at the tournament almost invariably join together because it is their best chance to make money, and they just take 1st place by force.
But Smash 2v2 is incredibly complex. European teams have shown us just a sampling of what doubles should look like, and US teams are nowhere near it. If we haven’t, as a community, decided to take the time to harness the aforementioned mess in all these years, then I think it’s time to pull funding. Frankly it’s embarrassing to watch our best players bumble around the stage trying to make it through a doubles set with any kind of grace. (Of course there are exceptions, such as The Moon/DJ Nintendo, but these exceptions only prove the rule).
It Might Be Happening Anyway
I’ve attended tournaments with perhaps 30-50 people in the room, where only 5 teams enter. Often times the only teams that enter are ones that believe they have a chance at money.
I’ve been a spectator at home, trying desperately and unsuccessfully to find out details/results on a team tournament. Combing Reddit, Twitter, and Smashboards in vein and asking myself: isn’t the writing on the wall?
Ambiguity and apathy are our enemies, friends. We need to choose our goals wisely and work tirelessly toward them. Keeping that in mind, think of what we could do with the resources we would gain back by no longer hosting doubles. We could run smoother singles tournaments, less hectic and ending earlier, or perhaps add a new event – maybe crews? I’m just spitballing here, but what if we used the extra time to run boot camps where players new and old could sign up for on-site training?
Think about it, and share your opinions via your favorite social medium. Make your voice heard.
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Christopher “Wife” Fabiszak is a Melee enthusiast and author of Team Ben: A Year as a Professional Gamer
I have been a Melee spectator for a LONG time (since around 2004) and I am currently trying to get into competitive Project M play, so I’m speaking as a filthy casual, not an invested pro like yourself.
Doubles has always always always been a mess to me. For me, it has always been difficult to track and watch, commentary is usually all over the place and its just not as interested as some of the really hype singles matches.
Crew battles, on the other hand, have always been awesome, so yes, I would love to see those resources allocated elsewhere.
I feel like doubles actually provides a more interesting future for melee and for those interested for a couple reasons
I agree with your first point, it is rather confusing, but I think this is a good thing. Doubles is far off from being anywhere figured out, we see all kinds of character combinations and strategies. I think this is a nice balance to singles where we often see the same combos, the same match ups, the same general strategies, and probably most importantly, the same people getting 1st 2nd and 3rd. Because doubles is yet to be figured out we get to see people like pewpewu and sfat taking the number one with teamwork and determination. This should also prove more appealing to newer audiences as doubles is still rather accesible, if you put in consistent practice with a teammate you can actually look to upset players who you might never stand a chance with in singles. Not only that but there is still a lot of room for discussions of theory and strategy, which engages more people to immerse themselves in deeper parts of the game like theory crafting, plus having these discussions is one of the most fun parts about playing a game. Unlike singles where you see the same points get rehashed over commentary because many matches play out the same way.
Second, I don’t agree with your notion that because it is rather unaccessible to the uninitiated or newer players that we should not incorporate it. Playing to the inclinations of those that are less likely to support or community or not share the same passion for the game we do is not always the best strategy for keeping the game we love. It may allow us more wide spread access but should we really give up a part of the game that is challenging and strategically captivating because new smashers might not “get it”?
Third, I don’t agree that because doubles does not really receive the proper respect at the moment that we should abandon hope. Right now we are seeing a new found resurgence in the game with a lot of progressive attitudes. If there is a time to change the way we view and play the game it is right now. I feel like life could be blown into this form if more TOs and top players were willing to make rallying cries for it and explain to people why it is worthwhile, in fact i know that you would be willing to write a great article on the subject wife.
I respect you a lot wife but I did have to disagree with you on this one, i am not willing to give up hope on my favorite mode.
As a casual myself, Doubles is actually the only event I would ever consider entering, and while I love the intense one on one matches and find them easier to follow. . . I really do enjoy seeing doubles even if they may get hectic at times.
I personally have zero drive to be amazing at Smash. I love Smash to death. It’s been a huge part of my life growing up, albeit mostly in a casual way up until recently hearing about Project M and the more competitive side of things.
I DO have drive to be better at Smash WITH someone. If I had a friend or someone I got along with come up to me right now and go, “lets train, tour the states, and win some doubles cash!” I would be all for it. I would work my ass off night and day with my partner and try my best not to let myself or them down.
I would love to see some REAL teams. People playing consistently together. Right now there is very little in terms of consistent teams, and I feel this is something Smash lacks. In DOTA and SC2, teams are formed and they train together religiously. Some even move halfway across the world to eat and sleep in the same house so they can REALLY be on the same level with each other at every possible moment.
I feel the skill level in doubles is effectively higher than singles in some ways. Friendly Fire can RUIN a match if you don’t understand your teammates style. There is much more going on. Much more to be aware of. New strategies and tactics arise that simply aren’t ever present in Singles. The elements of working together and understanding your partner are really amazing to see, its just sad that 95% of teams aren’t real partnerships; they are just temporary alliances for the sake of monetary gain.
I would really love to see some actual teams form up. People who want to get better TOGETHER at playing as a true team. If this simply can’t be done, then I would love to see Crew battles take over doubles, but I will always love the allure of the team fight.
Overall, good points. Though I have to say that, as a spectator, I enjoy watching doubles, provided there AREN’T 3 or 4 Foxes in every match. Watching ROM 2014 doubles was not entertaining. There needs to be more variety in character selection for one thing, but more importantly there needs to be real team play.
If there are players out there who are still passionate about doubles –players like the Husband/Wife or Ken/Isai teams of old — they should form legitimate teams and practice as teams to make doubles matches less silly. IMO, that’s really the only way doubles is going to become relevant again.
Oh, also: vain*
I disagree wholeheartedly. Doubles is more complex than singles, which makes it a better game in my book. As players get better and better at singles, matches become more and more “figured out” or “solved”, where it is always clear what the best thing to do is, and the better player is just the one who executed better.
With doubles we’re a lot further away from being “solved”, as there are many more variables to consider. At any point you can just switch from fighting the guy you were just fighting, to fighting his teammate. The cost-benefit decisions you have to make consistently make doubles much more engaging and rewarding of intelligent decision making over mere execution and memorization.
I agree doubles isn’t as fun to watch/commentate right now, but there are a few things that can be done to improve that. First, we could try a single character rule, which means you can only have one of any character on a team, disallowing ditto teams like two puffs or two foxes (as everyone knows these are the most boring teams to watch).
Another thing is commentators can just get better at commentating doubles. It’s a different style and pace of game, and most commentators are used to singles. I think commentators haven’t put in enough of an effort to make doubles exciting for us to count doubles out as an entertaining game.
Again, I completely disagree that doubles should be taken out of tournaments. Doubles has a lot of untapped potential which could be used in a positive way to make Melee even bigger. I can even imagine doubles-only tournaments being a huge hit. To take out doubles would be to severely cut down on Melee’s potential for the future.
I disagree, doubles encourages playing in a “solved” manner to deal with the complexity. People seem to think less in doubles than in singles, playing a certain way instead of reading the opponent. When your attention is split you can’t focus as much on percentages, the actions of the opponent, stage positioning, or anything else. The depth can’t be fully experienced and is replaced with an attention optimization game. Singles is incomprehensible enough, and is no where near solved. Doubles is pure chaos.
I agree with Wife, the benefits are all there. While Doubles can be an amazing spectacle, right now it just doesn’t help the small, yet rapidly growing competitive Smash scene. It’s like 3v3 or Dominion in LoL. If the players are not invested in it competitively, then naturally it leads to disinterest across the entire community. From the commentators to the spectators – it is hard to hype something that’s regarded so casually. At this point it’s all it is — casual. We’re a community, not a company so it was right for Wife to bring this up to table for the community to decide. Should we allocate precious resources for something as elusive and rare as a Wombo Combo or should we invest in more expertly handling the basic presentation. The term “production value” is just non-existent, let’s be honest. VGBC is at the forefront but they too are at the crossroads of casual, laughable presentation or amazing, awe-inspiring, professional sports. Look at GomTV, OGN, LCS, MLG – why shouldn’t we aim for better? If Smash as a whole really does deserve to be the professional sport we deem it to be, we have to stop being babies and do what is necessary to present it to the world. I’m sure Wife, along with many others, are sick of Smash teetering on the edge of being of real significance. Wife’s deduction stems from a burning desire to truly elevate Smash, a challenge to those who really believe in it. We have to make these tough choices, or watch this bright star fizzle out and die.
Posting again, because I have thought more about this and read up on some other peoples opinions on it as well, and I believe I have an idea.
Doubles needs to become it’s own Smash Spectacle, away from doubles. Doubles should be removed from Singles tournaments, but Doubles tournaments should become something on their own.
Instead of Doubles taking up space and time and resources from Singles Tournaments, just give it some of it’s own space. If it becomes it’s own event, it will start getting attention as more people decide to team up for real. It would start creating its own community from the ground up as opposed to leeching off the established singles community as it has been all this time.
Instead of a side spectacle, make it a main event with it’s own tier list, strategies, community, and players. Let the people who are really into Doubles start taking care of it and growing it into it’s own scene alongside Singles. Right now Singles smothers Doubles at Tournaments. There isn’t any space for Doubles to get bigger either.
Wife is right that its been a long time and Doubles hasn’t really become anything yet, and I agree something needs to be done. I disagree that it means Doubles should be erased entirely though, because there is SO MUCH of it to be explored. It has been a side event, and it will continue to stay a side event until it becomes something of its own. I don’t think Doubles will ever grow further if it continues to remain something tacked on the side of Singles as a tradition.
Throughout the evolution of competitive gaming. . . it’s always been about TRYING NEW THINGS. The best player is the innovative player. The player who gets better even when everyone around him/her is going “yeah, sure, you do that” and sarcastically brushing them off. . . only to have it slap them on the face later on when it ACTUALLY WORKED OUT.
The tier list only looks the way it does now because of the extensive amount of training and research that has been put into each character. Did the tier list look the same in 2004? 2005? 2006? No. It did not. Look at Jigglypuff over the years. From 17th to 3rd and more recently down to 5th. Mario? Once 5th, down to 17th, and now at 14th.
Teams doesn’t have the same innovation yet because not enough people have banded together to make it so. We don’t have the same people playing alongside each other 24/7, and everyone who is playing together is just applying everything they know from Singles as if Doubles is the same game. It isn’t. There should be dedicated doubles tiers. We should be researching pairs from the ground-up the same way we have been for singles. We won’t ever have that growth if Singles and Doubles share the same space. All of the eyes will be on Singles, because singles is the main event. If we create another space where Doubles is the main event, then it will gather its own eyes, fans, and competition, and hopefully grow into the vast amount of possibilities yet to be explored. . . the same way Melee originally started.
Branching off and giving Doubles its own spotlight, however small at first, may be the one true way to see if it should be sticking around or not. People got together over land and sea to make Smash what it is today. Let’s see if there are enough interested Doubles Smashers out there to make it happen all over again.
Oh man… this is going to offend a lot of people.
But honestly I’m down lol.
I’d agree with abolishing doubles. While I do believe that there is a lot of competitive depth still undiscovered in doubles and commentators could improve to make the format more accessible, I don’t think any of the proposed solutions can practically solve all of the issues in Wife’s post.
Yes, commentators can try to improve at commentating doubles, but good commentary over a game where so much is going on is always going to be harder to absorb in comparison to good commentary on singles play.
I also agree that there is a lot of depth that can be explored in doubles and that melee’s future would benefit from that exploration. Unfortunately, no one is really taking the time to explore in that direction. If it hasn’t happened in over 10 years, I highly doubt it’s going to happen now unless steps are taken to make players practice teams as opposed to team up with someone of similar skill and try to steam roll the opposition with their individual abilities. Arguing that “there’s a lot of unexplored depth” is irrelevant when a majority of top teams aren’t exploring and have little reason to.
With doubles gone we can actually have crew battles without tournaments running incredibly late or long exhibition matches if that turns out to be more popular. One of the main things that turned me and a lot of others on to melee as a competitive game were the FC3 crew battles yet we barely see crews anymore because of time constraints. Unless something is going to be done to make players practice as a team (such as region, sponsor, or character restrictions) I think there are some obvious better uses of our tournament time.
I agree with wife. As a new TO for smash in CT. I may just cancel the doubles event and put that cash prize towards PM and melee singles. adding more prize and focus on running a nice smooth event. thats sounds like a plan to me. http://www.underworldgamezsmash.com . But for doubles I also agree with nova, in which there should be only one of the same character per team. I was thinking just like league there should be a draft pick system. (For example, whoever wins the rock, paper, scissors. picks there character first or can have the double pick second. ). so team A gets pick 1, then Team B gets pick 2 and 3 and Team A get last pick. Must be all different types of characters. NO Character the same.
Bros before pros
Instead of getting rid of doubles, encourage participation. Make doubles fee free for those who enter singles and pull like 10% of singles for doubles prize pool.
Also Latromi’s post is a great idea.
That would just upset people playing singles.
pretty unfair for the people who don’t enter doubles, getting money out of their prize pool.
Wife! I honestly think it is unfair for the two best players at the venue to join forces together and just take the win doubles. I actually found that when the screen zooms out after a death from the blast zone it is very hard to see what my movements are. I am a big fan of doubles but I think they can be let go finally from a tournament. On the other hand a crew battle or possibly helping pm get more recognized! (Even though you dont like pm. I still feel like you should give a chance). It would be super interesting and something new to bring to the table of the community to promote something new to the casual smashers.
Have TO’s tried running Doubles with 3 stocks each? Or 2? It would be more entertaining for spectators and take less time.
Dude, Sheridan is gonna fight you.
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The most viewed Smash Bros video of all time is still Wombo Combo. If what matters are viewers, doubles beat singles by a margin. We are the only ones at fault for not hyping it up well enough.
Btw, Brawl doubles > Melee doubles.
K, so I’m just a casual who likes watching tournaments a lot. While I really enjoy watching doubles for the most part, I can see that it’s not all that practical as well.
Maybe you could have doubles some times, only when people register in advance. Have a minimum number of teams required for the doubles to go through. That way, if doubles really needs to go, then it’ll be up to the community to make that decision.
I really dont believe limiting our options at this point, even with Melee on a slight popularity upswing, will do us any good. Moreso, the communities apathy towards doubles might be lack of knowledge on the subject as the article here (imo) suggests rather than lack of general interest. If they’re not a community draw for viewers, then simply dont allow doubles on camera/stream if it becomes a issue. Simply eliminating doubles now rather than putting effort into expanding it would be annexing a deep part of melee and would only put forth less reason for people to play longer at events, which is stifling to community and player growth.
Melee as I see it, is far from its death like it was in ROM1, but to eliminate something so good from our community for lack of interest instead of trying to spark more interest seems more like a copout that will ruin competitiveness rather than a solution for bettering melee.
I’ve been with the Melee community since 2004, and I know the awesome fuckers in this community are hard workers, so why not put some more effort into bettering teams image? I mean cmon, we’re not a buncha quitters, we’re better than that.
I mean no offense to Wife, but this seems like an attempt at a lazy solution, that’s all. : Lets put more effort into it before declaring its ready to have its life support pulled.
By reading your article I can’t honestly expect anyone to put up a good counterargument because of its poor structure, but based on what you’ve already said, I will try my best to respond based on what I hope is the assumed context while also bringing about my own criticisms.
First: I say let doubles happen, for any smash game, so long as people are willing to play in them. I’m sure people will state that they view it is a waste of time if a small amount of teams form out of a large tournament, but things can improve which leads me to my next point.
Second: Let leaders or influential players in the community drive the interest for doubles (no matter the smash game). If entering teams is an issue, then motivating others to enter can be the solution. If people are intimidated because the top two players enter and earn free money, then try to encourage other players to team up and train so they can beat the top team – don’t let them go unchallenged. TL;DR – the interest may be there for all you know, but the incentive sure isn’t.
Third: Your structure for this article is poor. The introduction would suggest you are calling for the end of doubles completely in smash (general), yet the focal point of your examples is melee (specific). Again you don’t establish what size tournament you’d like to see doubles abolished from, you just say you want it abolished – period (general), but your example was for a tournament of 40-50 people (specific). It’s really hard to pick apart this article and give a truly well defined response with the way you haven’t specifically established what the problem is with doubles.
Fourth: As respectable as your plea to have someone counterargue is, I overall don’t see it makes a difference for what I’m about to say. You have a lot of nerve saying that a type of event should be completely abolished. I pray that your argument never makes it to any back room and it becomes an offical decree of said back room. If a reasonable amount of teams are formed for a tournament (depending on size), then by all means, let them play.
Fifth: For someone who is so invested into your game and community, especially someone who has lived through the rebirth of your respective community, I’d expect you to have the better attitude toward an event like doubles. If it’s dying, try and find a way to revive it. Granted, you’re just one person, you think a certain way and can’t possibly think of all the solutions for a problem, but if doubles is in decline, I’d expect the first response would be to put on your thinking cap and find ways to incentivise people to enter doubles. Sure, it’s not promised to be an easy fix all the time, but I’ve seen how consistent perseverence and work can grow just about anything, especially with smash. – Speaking as a TO who’s seen the rise and fall of many tournaments over the past five years.
In response to “It’s Messy”:
Why does commentating have to be a play by play procedure? Listen to hockey broadcasts; you have to use a lot of imagination for them. Commentating is just commenting on players and situations. Who gives a FUCK if I didn’t hear you say that M2K did a forward smash? You’re better off talking about the player – what he’s been up to, things you love about his style, things like that. Besides the fact, commentating on smash videos is pretty superfluous in my opinion.
Also, if you’re complaining about not being able to see your characters on the screen, put a tag on your character and be done with it.
[…] couple of weeks ago, Wife’s article stirred up quite a bit of discussion on the topic of teams. Though his post had many salient […]