I’ve been meaning to unban wobbling at my tourneys for a little while, and I figured this was a good time to make a post about it. For context, I’ve banned wobbling at all my tourneys ever since I started TOing. It was standard to do so back then; for example, four of the five biggest Melee tourneys in 2010 banned it. There really wasn’t any new info that came out about wobbling to change my mind, so I stuck with it for a long time. Just to clarify, the main philosophical reasons I’ve banned wobbling at my past tourneys are:
1. It hypersimplifies character interactions to the point of detracting from traditional Melee depth mechanics such as stage positioning and DI. For example, when you get hit by Falco’s shine, you can DI in any number of ways and factor in your current stage position to mitigate the risk of getting death combo’d. But when you get grabbed by ICs, you get punished 0-death for one single mistake without any chance to interact defensively with DI or stage positioning in the midst of the combo. It takes away from what makes Melee so deep.
2. It degenerates gameplay at low-to-mid levels of skill by placing a huge premium on the tech skill revolving around the grab game. It creates a black-and-white interaction between non-top players, removing defensive options for the grabbed player and disproportionately rewarding the grabbing player with no regard to stage positioning or mid-combo mixups. This subsequently affects low-to-mid level players’ tournament experiences very negatively.
3. It doesn’t fit the skill set criteria that we subjectively deem valuable to test in a tourney match. For example, we ban Hyrule Temple because the cave area of the stage creates degenerate character interactions that we don’t deem valuable to test in a tourney match, and we ban Poke Floats because the side scrolling aspect of the stage creates a non-interactive requirement to move that we don’t deem valuable to test in a tourney match. Wobbling doesn’t fit the bill, just like these stages don’t.
4. It’s what the majority of in-person tourney attendees prefer. There is a misconception in social media circles that it’s the other way around, and this probably stems from the fact that the topic of wobbling brings out a very vocal minority within a demographic that doesn’t accurately represent regular tourney attendees. As a TO who prioritizes attendees first, it’s important to strike a balance between what attendees prefer and what is logistically just.
Whether you agree or not, I think it’s important to recognize these reasons, because you’ll better understand the relationship between Melee’s character interactions and Melee’s standard ruleset. Honestly, I would personally prefer if wobbling was banned everywhere, but I realize now that is a selfish stance to take as a prominent TO hosting bigger and bigger events. With that said, wobbling will be legal at my tourneys moving forward. It’s too difficult to define or enforce a ban on, and additionally, it’s been unfair to Michigan players who get no practice vs wobbling here before they go to out-of-region majors. Thanks for reading!
I applaud this decision for looking at the wobbling rule from a wider perspective and considering the consequences to regional players and enforceability.
As for wobbling itself, perhaps the special importance of the grab game should be a feature ICs matchups. To the extent that it may degenerate mid-level gameplay, I personally believe it heightens high-level gameplay by bringing the climbers into the higher tier and giving to melee a unique player interaction centered on avoiding grabs and seperating the climbers, which is also interesting for spectators. Ofc that’s just me.
But you should avoid grabs against every character… Against Ice Climbers, it’s basically a ridiculous mini-game of “I better not ever make even the slightest technical error, or I lose a stock. If I’m on point, I win”. The dynamic you’re describing is boring, and essentially a single player game.
“and giving to melee a unique player interaction centered on…”
unique does not necessarily mean good. You also say “which is also interesting for spectators” as if it’s a fact, and I don’t even actually agree with that sentiment.
the end of an era
Makes no sense. You have great reasons for not allowing it, but then you allow it just because everyone else does…..
Glad to hear it, as for the points in the article.
1.This is a fair point and probably the most common complaint, despite the fact that actually getting wobbled from 0% to death usually doesn’t happen unless you are an impossibly terrible masher and/or are completely unaware of how the ics punish game works. Falco’s shine is also an unfair example to be comparing it to, if ics had a hilariously strong neutral game along with a frame 1 grab that could be jump cancelled your argument would make a little sense, but as we all know, this is not the case.
2. This point holds quite a bit of truth, but rulesets should be built around the highest level of play.
3. You and I both know that there is far more to the stage list than the criteria you described, the stage list is built around creating a mostly neutral enviroment with CP’s allowing for character advantages without creating near-impossible scenarios for one character.
4. That’s your personal take on tournament hosting, but it’s good to see that you’re realizing that it’s more important for a premier TO to keep a ruleset just instead of catering to an (Honestly somewhat ignorant) group of average smashers. Across the highest level of players the general opinion is to allow wobbling.
How’s not allowing wobbling until the top 32/16/8 bracket as a ‘solution’ regarding point 2? Good ICs players should be able to utilize wobbling, however I also think it skews expected results and be at low/mid levels, this seems to at least help this issue. I can see issues with this rule though, such as 2 high level players meeting in pools, with the ICs player being limited by the ruleset.
None of these are legitimate arguments.
In fighting games, we only ban things that quote: “break the game.”
For a strategy to be broken it must be unbeatable. Sure you cant get out of wobbling, but you made a mistake to get grabbed. It’s like getting hit by falco lol. Sorry.
Anyway, ice climbers havent even won a major before, with or without wobbling on. therefore, its not broken, and it cant be banned. it doesnt make any sense.
Did you even read the article? You just compared making once mistake and getting grabbed to getting “hit by Falco”.
“Don’t get grabbed” is the old Isai advice of “don’t get hit”. Of course you don’t want to get grabbed. You don’t want to get grabbed in ANY matchup.
Pretty silly how you present all these valid points but you’re forced to do otherwise because of “everyone else”. Admirable of you, but silly that things have to be this way.
[…] The last big rule change was when Robin “Juggleguy” Harn banned wobbling from The Big House tournaments series. Even that rule changed with the most recent installment, The Big House 5, when he joined the rest of the community in making it legal again. […]
[…] The last big rule change was when Robin “Juggleguy” Harn banned wobbling from The Big House tournaments series. Even that rule changed with the most recent installment, The Big House 5, when he joined the rest of the community in making it legal again. […]
[…] stance today (Juggleguy retweeted these two pro-ban arguments on February 7th, 2019). He eventually unbanned it in 2015, citing the ever-increasing number of tournaments that allowed wobbling as the […]
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Melee It On Me – Juggleblog: Wobbling Then and Now
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Melee It On Me – Juggleblog: Wobbling Then and Now